the 389th Bomb Group Yahoo discussion group: 389thBG Yahoo discussion group.
Bill Crum:
This is the story of ???? ?????? (Can't remember his name) I met him at the induction center in Los Angeles, went through basic together , then armament at Lowery. We became separated at Lowery when I had an emergency furlough & was dropped to a later class. Some months later, I ran across him in the chow line at Westover. He was just finishing flight training as I was just beginning. That was Feb or March 44. Some time in Nov. I was standing in the chow line at Hethel & was surprised to find the same person. Only he didn't look so good. He told me he was shot down on one of the tactical St Lo missions. They were apparently flying parallel with, & bombing the front lines, from 12,000 ft (?) They were hit & went down in flames. Paul (I think his name was) landed on the German side & being singed up pretty bad, was loaded into an ambulance along with several bomb damaged German troops. Together, real cozy in this ambulance, looking out the back window, they watched this P51 come up the road behind them. The pilot decided to honor the Red Cross. In time, they reached Paris & he was put in the German hospital & treated for his burns.
A month went by, & one day the Germans just up & left them all in their beds. A day or so later in come the U.S. troops. In November, he arrived back at Hethel. He was no longer combat material, so I assumed he was sent back to the U.S. I never saw him again.
I believe the mission was No.166, 25th of July. There were two planes lost, Yankee Rebel S/N 42 95026, 567th Sq. Pilot = Roe. Macr # 8668 according to 389th cronology. There was 1 kia, 5 evaded (they must have landed on the US side), 2 POWs. I believe my friend must have been one of those 2.
Any body out there can fill me in on who I am yaking about, & maybe even a conclusion??? One reason that I remember it so well, (all except his name) I wrote a girl friend back home, about him. I thought it was OK as long as I mentioned no names. The head censor in London checked out this particular letter, fired it back to Hethel. My Squadron CO (566th) called me on the carpet & reamed me out good. He showed me the letter, it looked like a shotgun had got to it there were so many words cut out. He told me, escaped POWs were not to be mentioned AT ALL--ANY TIME!! B4 being dismissed, he said "if anybody asks, you are restricted to the base for a couple of weeks. Nice guy. I can't even remember his name. Lucky to remember my own these days.
Bill Crum
Aside from getting shot at with any type weapon that was handy to the ground troops, the problem with low level flying is one of navigation. The land marks go by so fast it is easy to miss them. But it was a real pleasant change from high altitude missions----no sloppy oxygen mask with icycles, wear summer clothes etc. But it was a rare occassion. The only time my crew got any of it, was hauling gas over to France for Pattons tanks. Since there were no minumum altitude rules, & the terrain of England & much of France, is flat, my pilot, Berthelsen, chose to fly at 200 ft. It was great, standing at the waist window & watching the scenery go by. Only near catastrophy, when we took off from the newly liberated German airfield for the return trip, our bombardier who was playing navigator, told the pilot to take a compass heading of 360 deg. So we are cruising along at a couple hundred ft, when we noticed all these troops on the ground running for cover & shooting their rifles at us. Our would be navigator had taken us over a corner of German occupied Holland!! Lucky for us, the Krauts were as surprised as we were & didn't have time to take aim.
Another experience in low level flying, was returning to Hethel from a mission, with ceiling ZERO.
We cruised the Norfolk County with flaps & gear down, weady to pounce on any landing strip that showed. And, again I remember standing at the waist window, counting the chickens in somebodies back yard.
As for training, the group did fly a mission, staying over England for the purpose of preparing for jet fighter attack. The RAF performed simulated attacks with their new twin engine jet, with P51's chasing him.
We gunners tracked them with the turrets. No bullets!! It was quite an air show. The jet showed how it could fly straight up through the formation with no stall. The P51 tried the same attack, but fell off B4 passing through the formation. This practice mission took place, must have been Sept 44, some time B4 the German jets started showing. Hope that answers the questions about training AND low level.
Bill C
(from "Tom and Bev")
Group,
It seems that a few of us oldtimers are putting some of our memories on the site as a part of history. There are not many of us left. I have one story that I feel should be noted somewhere because I believe it is unique. On our second D Day mission we went to StLo. We carried 2000 lb bombs for the only time in my 34 missions. The object was to knock down buildings to prevent German panzers from hitting the beachhead. In those days all major roads went through the towns. The bombardier was riding nose turret and as navigator I was elected to drop on the lead ship. There was no opposition and I salvoed the bombs with the toggle switch and the manual lever. The engineer said bombs away and closed the bomb bay doors. We turned for home and were advised that because of poor conditions we would land at an RAF base in southwest England (I cannot remember the name) As we were on final approach the bombardier and I left the nose to go to the waist for landing. As we entered the bombay we dicovered a 2000 pounder still hanging in the left rear rack. Luckily, the bombardier had the pins in his pocket. We replaced them and went into the waist. Flaps were down, wheels were down and we were not connected to the intercom. The bombardier asked me if I used both the electrical and manual release. I said yes and he replied Idon't know what is holding that bastard in there. At that point we hit the runway and the bomb took out the bomb bay doors and skittered down the runway.
I wonder if this was in the mission folder? In 1953 I returned to France and visited StLo. The first thing I saw was a memorial to the 2000 french killed on D Day in StLo.
As I recall. 7:00AM, the day was half over. Especially so in the long winter nights, & a long distance mission. The planes had to be airborn at the first signs of dawn in order to be back B4 dark. That formation bit became extremely hazardous in the dark. And those overworked ground crews, they didnt get much sleep, NO sleep until the group was in the air & departed for Germany. I remember having a sleepless night or two, listening to the ground crews running up those Pratt & Whitneys, one at a time. Very noisy, I don't know how the chickens & the sheep stood it.
From what I observed in my 6 months stay at Hethel, the flight crew returned from a mission, taxied to the B24s assigned hard stand, parked & shut down. The crew climbed out dragging all of their gear, kissed the ground & departed on a waiting truck for the debriefing room & that beautiful round of scotch. The pilot reported any malfuntions of the B24 to the crew chief & the ground crews went to work on the plane, patching holes or what ever. On "maximum effort" periods such as D Day or Battle of the Bulge, where every plane & crew were scheduled up every day, weather permitting, it was a tough go for all of the grunts. The various crews worked through the night, using the "put put" generators for lights, loading bombs, ammo, oxygen. They must have been climbing all over each other. When they were finished, the crew chief took over, checking out each engine, RPM's, manifold pressure, oil pressure, etc. Last but not least, top off the fuel tanks & kick the tires. By then, it was about time for the flight crews to arrive for the days mission.
On those maximum effort days, it was just that. One of those days, we took off, couldn't get the landing gear up. We thought we were going to get the day off but the management had other ideas. We circled, landed, parked. There was a truck waiting for us, carried us to another B24, all warmed up & ready to go. We clmbed aboard lugging all of our flight gear, & took off again, racing to catch up with the formation.
Soooo, thats the way it was. I think most of the Ground crews had some sort of shack put together from ammo boxes, at their hardstand. They had an oil drum gasoline heater, a couple of ammo box seats, almost all the comforts of home. I don't know how they rainproofed it or what they did for hot coffee but you can bet they had something rigged for the purpose. These shacks were out in the woods, a long ways from headquarters. There were NO inspections, safety or other wise.
I hope this has shed some light on the life of the ground grunts.
Bill C
Tom & Bev,
Reference the 2000 pounder skidding down the RAF runway, I bet somebody got an earfull of British name calling. And you can thank your guardian angel that you got the safety pins back in that baby B4 it was ejected.
I had a harrowing experience trying to get rid of a malfunctioning bomb rack full of 100 pounders. Remember the incendiary clusters that were hung on the lower shackle??. And the 100 lbs were strapped together in threes, & hung in each shackle above. We had an occasion where that incendiary did not release, & all of the 100 pounders came down on top of it, lodging between the incendiary cannister & the lower rail of the outside fuselodge. Very precarious. We carried them back that way untill over the channel, left the formation & went down to 5000 ft. Myself & the bombadier went back & proceeded to TRY to eject them one at a time, because all of the safety pins had been pulled & they were fully armed as soon as the little propeller came off. Hanging on to the fins & pushing - pulling we were trying to get them forward & out. We did not notice the RO, (God rest his soul) was stooped over on the catwalk, had a screw driver messing with the incendiary shackle. I had just let loose of a tail fin when WHOOSHHHH, they were all gone & no damage done. But if I had not let go of that 100 pounder when I did, I would have found myself going with it. I can still have bad dreams about that little episode.
Flying with the 8th AAF, was hazardous duty, with or without the ME109's & the 88's. Accidents, collisions, the rotton weather, they all took their toll.
Bill C.
The Emerson electric nose turret was a dream compared to the earlier Consolidated hydraulic powered one. Lots of room to line the inside perimeter with flak suits. The negative was all of the plexiglass around the gunner, & the view provided.
You got to see all of those little black explosions B4 flying straight into them.
But as for the escape route, I got a pleasante surprize when it was my turn. The bombardier -Lt Bill Faircloth, & navigator-Harvey Muskrat, in discussing an emergency, they were to help me out of that turret. ( God bless their soul) When we lost a wing to an 88, the nose dropped & the next thing I knew, the ground was going round & round in front of me. I didn't wait for the bail out bell, I made my 1st mistake. I yanked free of all the wires & hoses that connected me to the turret, including my oxygen mask & leather helmet. Next came pulling the door release handle, the doors flew open behind me & I observed Faircloth & Muskrat were knelt over the nose wheel door pulling the red handle. I could see that they were not about to help me.
The process of entering, or exiting the turret, was one of sort of chinning yourself like on the old acting bar in the hi school gym. There were two handles over the turret door to grab onto & lift yourself in or out, feet first. That was my next move, & when I pulled, I came flying out . The plane was going down so fast, I was WEIGHTLESS!! I came out & left my boots in the turret. That was mistake # 2.
By now, my two would-be saviors, were gone out the open nose wheel hatch, & I was about to follow when the blasted nose wheel started down, just like we were preparing to land. I had to wait for it to fully extend because I could get squashed by the wheel passing through the opening. Once it got down, then the strut was in the way so I had to make a decision. Should I go through the tunnel & out the bomb bay?? or try to squeese out the nose wheel hatch. It was chaos in that nose compartment, papers & maps flying every place. Also, the ammo box had come open & since there was no gravity. a 50 caliber belt was hanging around in mid air. I decided my best chance was the nose wheel exit, from the rear side. So I took the few steps to the rear, knelt down to see if I would fit past that strut. I put my head down close to the opening----NOW I could hear those props chopping at the air. Now I had to wonder if I was going to land in them. I stuck my head down a little further to see if I was going to clear----
WHOOOOSH --I was sucked out by the vacuum created by the slipstream. I never touched the exit frame or anything else. I found my self rolled into a ball & was aware of the bottom of the fuseloge going by.
Anyway, I escaped without a scratch. And everything would have been dandy except I couldn't wait to pull that ripcord since I was wearing a backpack & if it didn't work, I wanted plenty of time to say my prayers. It worked OK & I was still somewhere around 18,000 ft. That was mistake # 3, for as I watched Miss America for more chutes, spinning straight below me, I discovered I was bare foot. And both feet were a pretty purple.
Anyway, the B24 had plenty of escape routes. Four on the flight deck had no trouble exiting via the bomb bay doors. There was a waiting line, the copilot -Tom Riggles- got impatient & went out the top hatch AND lived. The two waist gunners, Willie Pounds & Donald Johnson were pinned & went in with the plane. The tail gunner dont know how he got out, he also was wearing a backpack & came to free falling, long enough to pull the ripcord. Next time he woke up, he was laying in the snow looking up to several Germans staring down at him.
So to summarise, running out of oxygen is number one hazard. Or fire. If those 2000 gallons of 120 octane gets loose, the whole crew can get roasted.
SOOooo, so much for that episode.
Bill C.
Bill,
I would think, from the nose turret during any mission, it would
be a lonely feeling. Please tell me more about this mission!
Gerald B.
Gerald,
All of the gun turrets were very lonely. The ball turret was probably the worst in that respect for it was difficult to see any other part of the ship. The nose & tail turrets were next worst. The upper turret, you could rotate around, observe the nose, tail, wings & engines. Also, you could look down & see the RO lounging around. Fortunately for me, the ball turrets were removed sometime in the spring of 1944, in favor of speed, greater bomb & fuel load. Since I trained in the ball turret, that's where I would have been when joining the 389th. (Praise the LORD) When we started flying combat, I was assigned to one of the waist guns, however, Don Johnson the nose turret gunner, kept getting sick--vomiting- when the going got rough. That was a very awkward thing to do in any of the turrets---The ground crew raised hell---!! So Johnson & I traded, me in the nose, him in the waist where
he could keep a bucket handy. (There were no plastic bags those days) The waist positions were considered the best chance of escape from a broken aircraft, unfortunately for Johnson, we went down in a pretty tight spin, & both waist gunners were apparently pinned by centrifugal force. While me in the nose, practically flew out. One just never knows.
Bill C
Bill,
What prison camp were you in?
John
John
The 389th had enough B24's & spare crews so
very seldom was one required to fly 2 days in a row. It was more like 2 or
3 times a week, weather permitting. The month of Dec. 44, there was little
flying up until Xmas eve day, Dec 24th because most all of England & the
Continent was fogged in. That's when the Germans took advantage of the bad
weather & started the Bulge. Then on Dec. 24th, the fog disappeared & the
8th AAF went into action in support of our ground troops & soon the Germans
were in full retreat. Patton & the 101st Airborne got all the credit, but we
were busy, maximum effort every day up thru Jan 16th, taking out the rail
yards, bridges etc. And I have POW friends, artillery troops captured in
Belgium. They were in or near some of those rail yards that we were busy
blowing up. In fact, the Germans put them to work making repairs. They can
tell you, we did a job on Hitler's rail system.
As for time off, R&R, we had 3 day pass every now & then. Usually the whole
crew would go to London---Piccadilly Circus & such. Many loose girls-------
Then there was 10 days in the FLAK home. For my crew, this came following
our 20th mission. Long story attached---
#20 for us was to Hanau. There were problems on the bomb run----turbulence.
We were the lead plane in our element, the plane off our left wing, dived
under us, just missing our tail. The timing was a disaster. One of our bombs
apparently landed in the top turret. There was a BIG explosion, lifted our
B24 at least 10 ft, straight up. The tail gunner- Louis Winters reported
over the intercom, "the biggest piece of that B24 was the box of flairs"
kept on the flight deck. The flairs had ignited, & were going off in every
direction. Ours was one silent crew all the way back to Hethel. We were
carrying a strike camera in the rear hatch & it was rushed to the photo lab
by our bombardier & an hour after, he came back with a picture of a B24 with
#2 engine laid back over the wing---a direct hit from the ground. But I
still believe that story was for our benefit.
Anyway, next day we were off for 10 days at the flak home.
Great R&R, even better than being interned by the Turks, Earl?? It was a big
English mansion, in So West England. The ritzy part, near where the Queen
lives. It was run by the Red Cross & the AAF. We were issued civilian
clothes. What a treat. We were served orange juice in bed each morning. We
rode bicycles into the nearby village pub, wearing our civvies yet. We
played golf, after stopping at the clubhouse for a few scotch's. We shot
skeet by the hour, out behind the mansion.
Dec. 24th, it was back to reality. We got back to Hethel, late in the
afternoon. It was first day of flyable conditions, the base was like
deserted. But the squadron command, dreamed up a contest for the best
decorated Xmas tree. Lots of chaff (tinfoil) went for decorations. Then Xmas
day, it was another big one. The 389th lost 3 B24s to fighters. Great Xmas!!
As for the figure, Earl, I was about the same. 155 lbs, 5' 10'' sticks in my
mind. I wish I could say the same today. I am fighting to stay at 200. I
remember that at 18 years, I had never been in such good shape as after the
1st month of basic, with all of the calisentics, drilling, etc. I had never
been to a doctor, except for an injury when I was a little squirt. I had to
try out the wringer on my mothers brand new washer with my right hand. Still
bear the scars! I was not sick but one day in my 30 months service. That
was from food poisoning acquired one week end in Salt Lake City. I lost a
few lbs in my time as a POW, what with the sawdust bread diet, 2 months of
dysentery, etc.
Geezz, almost another whole book!!
I spent the month of Feb at Dulag Luft--Wetzler. Most of March at
Nuremburg. Then 3 weeks walking to Stalag 7A at Mooseburg. 1 week there & it
was all over---Patton & his tanks arrived. Ninety days! Sunday, Jan 28th,
to Sunday April 29th.
Bill C
Your turn Earl----------
Bill C
From Richard Peterson
Bill… What pow camp were you in?? We were shot down in tail end of 43 and I was in Stalag Luft 6 and 4…..
Dick,
Being a late arrival, I did not ever get dispatched to a prison Camp. Some camps in the east, were already being evacuated as the Ruskies advanced. So the poor Germans didn't know what to do with me. So I spent the 1st month, Feb, at Dulag Luft, just south of Wetzler. Then around the 1st of March, our troops began working on the Rhine, so we began the trip south inland, eventually ending at Stalag VII A, better known as Mooseburg. On the way, spent most of March, at Nuremburg untill the whole 8th AAF, the Brit's, began working on the city. Marshalling yards were too close to the camp, the day after my group were evacuated, 35 or so, inmates were killed.
From Paul Billings to Bill Crum:
Some weeks ago, in response to a yarn about Seco 6, you ask:
"where was Seco 6 ?" Through that exchange, I realized that you were a 566th
crew member. I also became aware that you had been shot down and was a POW.
I assumed, then, that you had been there before my time. Later, I found the
date and the mission on which you were shot down.
Now, this raises the question all over again. Could we have known each
other? My crew arrived at Hethel mid week before Christmas, which occurred
on Monday that year. Being the "rookie crew", we were slow getting
acquainted. It helped to find a home town neighbor, T-Sgt. Wilber Mahoney
from Kingston TN., about 40 miles from my home, who was engineer on the Hugh
Anderson crew, bunking nearby.
Our crew was a most unlikely mix: 1-Jew...1-Gentile...6- devout
Catholics...1- Agnostic. Our first mission was a "milk run!" 1/6/45, to
Bonn Germany. 10/10 cloud cover, RDX run...1 salvo of flak, 1,000' below and
1/2 mile to our right. Sooo...nothin' to it!
Our second mission, next day, to Zweibruken, almost a carbon copy of the
first mission. Welll, with two down and no harm, we are feeling much better
'bout this combat business.
Our third mission was on Jan 28th, to Dortmund (I saw your ship go down).
Today, we all found a new religion! Out there are all these gray/black puffs
of smoke...some with fire in them, all over the place! The nose gunner
called on the intercom: "BILLINGS, CAN YOU PRAY?" "I ain't much good at it
but I'll try. I intended to say: "Oh Lord! Here we are 4 or 5 miles high and
THEY are trying to kill us"...I only got to the "Here we are" when I heard a
rapid clicking in my headset. I release the mike button. It's the frantic
nose gunner: "Damnit Billings, He knows we are here! Tell 'im to DO
SOMETHING!!
So, Bill, we may have met...Paul
Paul,
Very interesting to hear from somebody that saw our plane get hit. I read some of the debriefing reports, a couple of gunners told what they saw--and some things they didn't see. For example, we were hit in the left wing & lost that wing from number one engine out. The witneses were going away so facing backwards, thus reporting we lost RIGHT wing. Also reported seeing 3 chutes come out of the bomb bay. That was the three of us in the nose, going out the nose wheel exit. One of the reports said the wing was on fire. Another said it looked like the pilot recovered control. Must have been a lot of wishfull thinking! I was free falling face to the heavens, & watched the formation go away & leave me. Soon they were out of sight & it got quiet--like quiet you can't believe. No accoustics. So I decided to pull my rip cord --back pack. The handle came off in my hand, I thought I had broke it. I threw it away, but it didn't leave me. Floated along side of me for a minute. Amazing!
Anyway, when the chute opened, I observed Miss America in a tight spin, straight below my bare feet. The outer left wing was missing, there was no fire, until it plowed into the ground. No way could it recover. James J Kratowska, waist gunner, & William H Strange, top turret, made the report on Jan 29th. I wonder what crew they were with, & position in the formation??? Very tough mission. To start with, half of the group did not take off due to the ice & blizzard. I read someplace where Miss America was last plane to get off. I guess you could call THAT the fickle finger!! Also on the flight plan, one pilot was killed--flak--, copilot brought plane home.
Back to SECO 6, I see on the Hethel map, that hut was close to the WAAF quarters. I think I would have remembered THAT. How about it Kelsey, you seem to know all. Maybe you have hut & bed assignments?? They had to exist because somebody knew where to find each man (boy) to wake up at 4AM, when it was still pitch black.
So what say to that?????
Bill C.
Bill.
Thank you for your personal account (only one that matters) of the "F+
Miss America" shoot down. As I described in the previous letter, we were
"The New Kids on the block." This mission was our first taste of real
danger. I do not know our exact position in the formation. I do know that we
were in the low left echelon. How far off lead, I do not know. We were not,
however, Tail End Charlie.
At about the IP we started picking up some flak, which was sporadic at first
but increasing in intensity as we flew along. Out ahead , we could see
hundreds of puffs. Suddenly, it became intense and close. Time is standing
still as I am gripped in this surreal nightmare...frightened...dazed...It
was a hypnotic experience! (It will surely bring out the Jell-O in your
knees...to say nothing about your ONLY clean suit of long-johns)
Out ahead, I see this huge ball of smoke...I see lot's of debris...I see
what appears to be an aileron, go floating by in "paddle wheel" flutter.
I
see this B-24 nosing down and turning to the left. At that moment, a burst
of flak between me and our wing man, drew all of my attention. When I
looked back, I could not find any trace of what I had just witnessed.
Hey, things are just getting started for the Kubala crew. Our very next
mission,#267, to Magdeburg, I watched our beloved "Delectable Doris", R+,
explode .
Now about SECO 6. Now that you mention it, I do not remember seeing "A
WOMAN" anywhere around our area. Fact is, I don't remember much about the
surroundings. There was a bomb shelter (large mound of earth with "X" walk
ways. I do remember walking the short-cut through the woods to the main
base. (think I could still do that blindfolded).
I did not keep a diary and was not much on statistics. So, dates, numbers
and facts are loosely scattered around in my memory.
Bill, it's great to be able to talk to you about this after 62 years...stay
in touch
PB...
Reply from Kelsey McMillan:
Hey Bill,
Well of course I have those hut and bed assignments! Not really, just kidding. I'd give my first born (if I had one) to have information like this and so much more about each building on the base; especially the Tech Site. Best I can do is tell you what squadron lived where, and what type of hut you're looking at on the map or from an aerial photo.
It was called the WAAF Site because that's who would have lived there had Hethel remained an RAF base. They had standard names for the various locations on an airbase; fairly self-explanatory: Dispersal Site; Tech Site; Communal Sites, Living Sites; WAAF Site; WAAF Communal Site; Defence Sites; and Bomb Stores.
I have been told that our WAAF Communal Site (the southern-most site) was occupied by 389th Hq officers and enlisted, and the Red Cross Volunteers; but I haven't been able to confirm the Red Cross folks lived there. I have also wondered whether squadron commanders and other high ranking staff officers lived there. Don't know if this was bad news or not for the folks at our WAAF Communal Site, but it was very near the sewage disposal works.
The WAAF Site near due west of Paul Billings's Seco 6, I believe was occupied by the station medical personal among others, but also cannot confirm. The WAAF sites were much nicer than your Seco 6 because all the barracks had their own indoor toilets and the site had large shower blocks.
I'm good friends with a 566th operations clerk who took his turn as charge of quarters and woke up 566th crews. But I don't think he ever got close enough to the guys he woke to be able to recognize faces. He said he kept a good distance when waking you guys to avoid getting slugged.
Coincidentally, this ops clerk is the new 389th Vice President - John Rhoads. We should get him on this forum. Until then, I'll send you his email address if you want it Bill.
Thanks for posting this great stuff! It all goes in my database.
Kelsey
Pussface: May I revisit "Lest We Forget"?
The Jan. 28, '45 Mission to Dortmund by the 389th is of special interest to me as well as to Bill Crum. I was a waist gunner with the Kubala crew on this mission. I was eye witness to the "Miss America" shoot down. It was "The Baptism of Fire" for me.
This was our third mission, the first to Bonn, the second to Zwiebrucken. Both were "milk runs" as we were above the clouds. We did see a few bursts of flak a quarter mile away.
This mission to Dortmund was visual with a few scattered clouds. Within minutes after the "I.P."(keep in mind that mere seconds can become like long minutes in this situtation), all hell broke loose! There is no imagination capable of equaling this first exposure to deadly fire. (don't squeeze the Charmin). I'm sure the temptation to red line the throttles, was strong on the flight deck.
Then it happened. I saw much debris go streaming by; an aileron is fluttering along; chunks of stuff; part of a cowling. Then I shifted my gaze forward...this B-24 still in a cloud of smoke and junk with a folded wing is floundering, then disappears.
And that, my friends is where Bill Crum picks up the story. There were many (26) other "hairy" missions , but none quite like this one.
Now I have a prposition for you: I will make a $50 contribution to our newsletter fund for a copy of "The Formation Plan" for this mission...Yeah, I know, but I practice "Jack Benny" economics! I will bend over, bad as it hurts, to pick up a penny out of the mud!!
PB
After receiving the formation plan, I noticed that my Dad (DuFlon) was also flying during this mission. I am very new to WWII History and I was wondering if someone could give me a quick run down on what this mission entailed or if there is a particular website that I can bring up to research. Appreciate the help!
Renee
Renee
Welcome to the forum. Your question takes in a big territory---what this mission entailed. I will try to put an answer together. The 389th BG was one of 14 bombardment groups of the 2nd Air division of the 8th AAF. The whole 8th AAF was commited to destroying German munitions factories & fuel supplies, using B17 & B24 four engine bombers in day light bombing. The British bombed at night---safer that way. In any case, it was "round the clock bombing" weather permitting, & by fall of 1944, the 8th could put up 1200 bombers a day. The German fighter defense gradually went away--they ran out of pilots & fuel---thanks to our P47 & P51 escorts. But they made up for it with 88mm anti aircraft guns. They had slave labor in underground factories producing aircraft, & all kinds of munitions. I have often wondered if us fly boys maybe owed a lot to those slaves because there were lots of duds. And altitude fuze settings were very innacurate in that the shells usualy went off above or below our bombers. One time out of my 30 missions- Karlsruhe--from my birds eye view in the nose turret, I see this horizontal straight black line straight ahead. That black line turned out to be 88's exploding, every one at our altitude & right over the target. At the debriefing, we learned that probably a German fighter was in the vicinity, radioing our altitude to the ground gunners. But they must have been using special shells because the altitude settings were accurate.
The 8th in England & the 15th flying from Italy, all but won the war. Following the Battle of the Bulge in December, & after our troops crossed the Rhine, it was all but a walk through. Germany was pulverized. I know because I was there. I became one of the walkers---always about two weeks ahead of Patton's 3rd Army tank force. The Germans were on the run, sometimes ahead of us POW's, building road blocks & blowing bridges. Total caous. It all ended shortly following that #@%^&% asshole Hitler committed suicide. He held an unbelievable grip on the whole population,mostly by fear.
Any way, I hope this answers a question or two. The mission to Dortmund on Sunday Jan 28th 1945, 389th mission # 262, was to destroy synthetic fuel plants. Their oil/gasoline supplies were gone. Everything moved by coal---I saw a 1939 Chevy with a coal burner, complete with smoke stack, mounted in the trunk space. Needless to say, it was not winning any drag races.
So, any further questions?? Ask Kilroy. One thing more, the 8th casualty count was 45,000. 25,000 of those were POW's. Thats higher than the Marine count/rate in the Pacific island hopping.
Bill C
The 44th Bombgroup was along for the ride that day also here is their summary.
1/28/45
Operations resumed today after one week of enforced stand down. Seven aircraft of the 67th, along with 21 others of the 44th BG, attacked a Coking Plant at Dortmund, Germany. Captain Holmer led the high right squadron composed entirely of 67th aircraft (7). Lt. Crandell failed to find the formation so flew with the low left squadron of the 453rd BG. An intense haze covered the target and all aircraft attacked but bombs hit over the MPI because our lead bombardier was wounded on the bomb run, and sighting had to be completed on Gee-H. Flak was accurate and intense at the target and fighter support was excellent. one aircraft crash-landed on the continent (#452 which could be 44-10542) 5 flown by the 506th Squadron. It had #3 supercharger out and #2 engine ran away. #1 engine started to go out and no field could be found. The pilot, Lt. Perrault *, lowered his landing gear and crash-landed 20 miles from Brussels. The entire crew got out safely and returned to England by ferrying another B-24 back. A/C #101 (42-51101) "Corky" and piloted by Lt. Corwine of the 68th Squadron, was last observed receiving a direct hit in the bomb bays while over the target. The aircraft pulled out to the left and then went down, on fire. Three chutes were observed as men bailed out, then an explosion. Only the pilot, 1st Lt. M.D. Corwine and T/Sgt. P.N. Colosimo survived, eight men KIA. 66th's Lt. Muldoon in A/C #618 crash-landed on return but all of the crew are safe. Captain Smith, 66th led the 44th formation and suffered Cat. "B" damage to his A/C. Lt. Norris (#279) and Lt. Hayden (761) suffered the same category. Lts. Daily and Podogil had Cat. "A" damage - all 66th, while three of the 67th's A/C suffered slight battle damage. Lt. Al Jones adds: "Ed Schoenfeld went with Muldoon. I sweated the ships out all day. Had a heavy snow storm and Muldoon didn't come back! The latest news has them crashing in France. Hope all of them are OK! Note. Crash-landing later reported in error. Sgt. Ed Schoenfeld was in London of Feb 4th reporting that ship barely made it to Allied lines - he and Muldoon bailed out, landing just inside our lines where the Canadians found them. Spent three days in Brussels and came back on a war-weary ship. 1st Lt. Overstreet promoted to Captain
* Lt. Roblee A. Perrault's A/C was #44-10542 G+.
I’ll weigh in with a report from the records of the 458th BG, also a 2nd Division B-24 group that went to Dortmund that day.
458TH BOMBARDMENT GROUP - MISSION # 174 - 28 JANUARY 1945
Once again bad weather kept us aground, and it was not until the 28th that we were again airborne. Just to show the poor flying weather we were experiencing let us take a note from the notes taken at the critique: The snow flurries which came down every five or ten minutes during takeoff made it an extremely difficult task. A few A/C managed to get off in each interval between flurries but a full three squadrons could not make it. Accordingly, the scheduled three squadrons had to be consolidated into a two squadron formation. Despite this obstacle, 15 of our A/C bombed the primary target, a coking plant 4 miles NE of the city of Dortmund. The Gneisemau plant here had not been previously attacked and was fully active in producing Benzol, which is of very high value as a motor fuel on account of its high octane rating. Major’s Brevakis and Phillip led the formation, dropping 155 X 500 GP’s by instrument technique with a visual assist. No SAV’s were obtained but crews reported much smoke and flame in target area, and that they had identified the target area and their bombs fell into the smoke. Another leg on our determination to eliminate the Hun’s capacity for producing oil in any shape or form.
S2 MISSION NARRATIVE
LEAFLETS DROPPED: Nil
A/C ATTACKING AND RESULTS: 15 aircraft bombed the primary target on a GH run with a visual assist. No SAV’s crews report that there was much smoke and flame in target area but that they identified it as target area and their bombs fell into the smoke.
E/A FIGHTER OPPOSITION: No E/A encountered
ANTI-AIRCRAFT DEFENSES: Flak encountered at target from 1204 to 1207 at 23,000 to 24,000 was intense fairly accurate tracking and barrage fire. Crews report part of it large round bursts believed to be 155MM at 1102 at WAST 5257-0443 encountered meager fairly accurate tracking flak at 23,000.
WEATHER AS IT AFFECTED THE MISSION: Clear at target but very hazy.
OBSERVATIONS: Munster M/Y looked about one fourth full and heavily hit. At 1212 M/Y at Korbecke seen to be about half full. Lippstadt A/F seen at 1217. Was snow covered but black marking in middle of runway indicated use possibly by jet A/C.
A/C LOST*: One aircraft from this group is missing. A/C 457 was last seen with the formation shortly after completing the bomb run but no crew reports seeing them leave the formation.
*1Lt Louis D. Vehslage crew, flying B-24JSH-5-FO 42-51561 7V G Lucky ‘1 ‘ (not ship #457)
For more on this crew and incident: http://www.458bg.com/crewbj129vehslage.htm
Darin Scorza
Son of a 458th BG Navigator
Kelsey,
Sure would like to have copies of anything that pertains to the Berthelsen crew. Note the date of the R&R assignment. It came immediately following a mission in which there were some questions about we dropped our bomb load on another B24. Talk about the fickle finger of fate---a whole series of malfunctions took place on that mission. First, the lead plane took us over the target twice (?) & second time around our whole formation was following another group & got into their prop wash (?). Whatever the cause, (Turbulence) nearing the drop point our group started bouncing around. The deputy lead dropped early & we mistakenly dropped on him. An instant later, there was a huge WHOOMPH & our B24 was lifted about 10 feet straight up. Winters, the tail gunner called on the intercom & reported That the only thing left of that B24 was the box of flares shooting off in all directions. It was the B24 that had been flying off our wing. There were no chutes seen. The MACR said "direct hit from the ground", no survivors. Next day, we were on our way to the flak home. As EZ would say---me thinks it was a white wash job!!
Any way, I have a picture of the flak home. I seem to remember that it was provided by the RED CROSS girls at the place. See the attachment.
Paul,
New kids on the block----& right at Santa Claus time. My crew (Berthelsen) went to the flak home for 10 days in Dec. arriving back at Hethel on Christmas eve. Somebody in our barracks had scrounged a small tree, & had it decorated with chaff.
I had the exact same initiation to combat & experienced the same shock when it became obvious that someone down there wanted to kill me. Our 1st mission, August, was a snap, bright sunny day, milk run to the Noball target. It was great, no flak, the scenery was fantastic. Very short trip down past London, across the channel, drop our bombs & turn around & head back to Hethel. I was thinking to myself---what a great way to fight a war. What a surprise I got on the second mission. Marshalling yards at Karlsruhe. We were briefed the the Krauts were moving troops & equipment through there as they retreated out of Italy. These guys were obviously experienced 88 gunners. As we approached, I see a straight horizontal line of black. Every 88 burst was going off at the same altitude----OUR'S!! Wading into that, the B24 started bouncing around with the many near misses. The dead flak rained off that aluminum skin like somebody threw rocks at us. Spivey in the top turret called on the intercom that we had a fire in # 3. Riggles, the copilot called on the intercom---says "Lets get the hell out of here Al" He activated the fire extinguisher in # 3 & the fire went out. We were off the left wing of another ship & it peeled off in the direction of the Swiss Alps, streaming gas from the right wing. One of the waist gunners called & said another plane had an engine fire. No one said anything about praying but I bet every man aboard was doing just that. As we left the target, Berthelsen called for help. Riggles was slumped over the controls. No oxygen. Holdredge, radio op, got him hooked up to a bail out bottle & he came back OK. Then Holdredge went through the plane & gathered all of the bail out bottles & stowed them beside Riggles. We were a long way from Hethel, Riggles had to be care full to swap bottles B4 the current one went dry. #3 engine smoked all the way back but never gave out.
Our landing back at Hethel was very exiting. We touched down, the brakes were applied for short time & we did slow. Near the end of the runway, the brakes were applied a second time & there was nothing. #2 engine was engulfed in smoke. I was in the waist & I made for the rear hatch, got it open & was about to jump but we were still moving at a pretty good clip. We came to the end of the runway, Berthelsen managed to turn the corner & that slowed us to a stop. I baled out & that solid earth sure felt GOOD!! About that time all of the emergency vehicles pulled up, ready for anything. Turned out it was hydraulic brake line got nicked from flak, dumped all over the red hot turbo. No fire, just lots of smoke. Next day, we learned from crew chief, Riggles oxygen line was cut back in the waist. The engine fire was caused by flak punched a hole in a rocker arm cover, allowing oil to leak onto a hot manifold. The oil supply lasted to get us back.
Very traumatic experience. I went to sleep that night saying my prayers in earnest. And up until that mission, I was enjoying the flying. The flight across the Atlantic was a real adventure for a teenager. Now all of a sudden, I didn't care to ever go up again. And 33 missions ahead of me.(They had just upped it from 30 to 35) Woe is me!
So we could have met, & no doubt did during the month of January, at least in the briefings,chow line or maybe even in one of those ice cold latrines. Berthelsen crew accompanied you on first & second missions, Bonn & Zweibrucken, Jan 6th & 7th. We were flying K+, Lonniemac. We also made a mission to Magdeburg on Jan 16. That was the begining of the end for it was on that mission that we lost our old reliable K+. Next mission, to Dortmund, we were assigned C+, Miss America & it had aboard some super radar jamming stuff which I have always blamed for our demise. Just remembered--one thing that marked our barracks, one of the crew members scrounged up a radio. After a mission, we gathered around & listened to Lord Haw Haw call us nasty names.
Interesting about Delectable Doris R+. I have a large 2x3 ft poster of R+. It appears to be returning from the UK, rudders all streaked with oil. It was bought for me by a nephew, in Los Angeles I believe. Also, a couple years ago, at a Moffett Field tour of the Collings Foundation B24, I met a local collector who gave me a large wall clock with R+ & Doris picture on the face. So somehow R+ survived, probably a replacement. Also, a mix up some place. Miss America, S/N 42 50558 was tagged C+
One other discrepancy, I have 28th Jan mission # 262 per Chris Gregg 389th home page.
Soooo What say to that???? I got to hang it up for tonight.
Bill C
Tmkr
That German gunnery Sergeant that you mention, sounds like the same caliber as
the one that hung out on the Seigfried Line up towards Belgium. This guy was maybe not one eyed, but he was a real hunter----like you with your pigs.
One beautiful sunny day, not a cloud in the sky , must have been October, several
groups of B24's were headed into Germany from the west, flying parallel a few
miles apart. Below was this hilly, wooded country, very peaceful looking. The
navigator called on the intercom, says "We are now crossing the Siegfried Line" . From
my nose turret I stared down trying to see something as famous as all of that----could
see nothing but peaceful woods. Then I looked off to my right (South) & observed
the group closest to us. Some 4 gun 88 battery down there in those peaceful woods
had started tracking that formation. The
1st black puff went off well behind tail end Charley. A couple of seconds later,
the 2nd black puff was a little closer. Again the 3rd shot closer yet & I bet
some tail gunner stained his OD's. The 4th & last, missed tail end Charley & nailed the
right wing of one further up in the formation. Full bomb & gas load. NOT a pretty
sight. That thing went down like a rock, tumbling end over end, the flipping & falling
tail first, then nose. Spilling gas & flame over the whole carcass. The whole
crew must have been cremated long B4 reaching the ground.
I never saw anything like it B4 or after. I bet that 88 gunner was patting
himself on the back & hoisting a tall beer. Probably got an air medal.
Bill
Do you ever dream about it? I do! Every night!
For most of my life, I did not dream about the war. Only during the last 10 years.
The dream is essentially the same, over-n-over. It is the panoramic view of the "flak field"created by intense AAA fire while on the bomb run, as seen through the waist window of a B-24.
This dream is a pleasure to recall. It is surreal of course, but all of the elements of the real thing are there except the fear and the anxiety, which were such a great part of being there. It is almost like watching a rerun of 12 O'clock High.
Allow me to describe it. As we pass the "I.P." and look ahead, we see what seems to be hundreds of "puffs" of 88mm smoke in varying stages of decay.(several formations are ahead of us) Some of these bursts are very young and as we fly along, it becomes more intense. Some bursts are very close...some have fire in them.
If I were ask to describe this field of benign smoke balls, the best I could do is to liken it to a field covered with over ripe mushrooms.
Clearly, this part of combat made the greatest impression on me. I do not recall ever having dreamed about any other aspect of the war.
This winter, 63 years ago was the most exciting time of my life. I have found nothing since, very exciting.
For the cynics who read this, I am not bucking for "A Section 8"...too late for that...Anybody?
T'mkr...
Coming home.
All POW's recieved 60 day furlough upon reentry to civilization. In my case, that began June 6th, 45. I about went berserk. All of my friends--hi school buddies--were still in the service, as well as all of the men folks in the family. The women, except for my Mom, were employed in the aircraft plants. My mom was not the sort of company that I was in need of, although I did spend the first couple of weeks with her, & her church friends who had been praying for me. But I soon wiggled out of that & grew very restless. My brother-in-law told me they were terribly short handed in the machine shop where he worked. He talked to the owner & I had a job. Worked 6 weeks of my two month furlough. Of course, I did a lot of prowling around the night spots. No hang ups there. It was fabulous as the men were out numbered by the ladies.
At the end of my 60 days, I reported back to the Miramar Hotel in Santa Monica, which the AAF had taken over. I had a physical & since the war in the Pacific was heating up for invasion of Japan, I pleaded unfit. I couldn't see myself riding a B24 nose turret over Tokyo. The doc assigned me to a convalescent hospital in Spokane. By the time I arrived there, the Japanese had quit. I put in 3 months there, got a discharge in October. Went home again, lost myself in booze & women for 6 months drawing $50 a month from Calif. readjustment fund. Finally settled down, went to college on the GI bill.
I was tongue tied about my combat days for 50 years. Even to my friends who had seen combat in the Pacific. Couldn't relate to their experience. There is something very different about combat with your feet on good old solid mother earth, and combat at 25,000 ft.
So, there you have it, another half book.
Bill
10/31/07 (on the Ken Burns series "The War")
... I feel that kids are not damaged by scenes of real life, or experiencing the bad along with the good. For example, how about the thousands of German, French, Polish, Russian, youngsters that lived through the slaughter, the hunger, the losing of family members, the fire storms --- all of the nasty events of war. Many of these ---
now adult people ---
are still with us & just may be ahead for the experience. I suspect this may be the reason the French & Germans today do not want any part of this Iraq stuff?? The POW experience was enlightening in some respects. I was accompanied by my Luftwaffe escort down into an underground bomb shelter. It was about dusk & we had an hour (?) to kill waiting for a train to show up. This bomb shelter was a huge auditorium size room, with many rows of bench's. People were entering, along with their kids, blankets, & whatever, all bundled up getting ready to spend the night. I suspect they had been bombed out of their homes. You can believe I wanted to crawl back into the woodwork. My escort, Luftwaffe Sgt Major, put me way over on the far side of the room. (He was a great person, saved my butt more than once.) He was pretty unhappy with me at first, pointing to all of the blown up buildings & rubble. I told him--it looks just like London--(I was lying) -- My point is--these people, kids & all, were literally pounded into the ground----in every city of any size.
Are the kids that survived those years any worse off for the experience?? I don't think so.
Another example--if you can stand it--(I will tell it anyway) My Dad grew up in Strong City Kansas, in the days of Wyat Earp. He told me the story of one hot day two culprits rode into town, held up the post office--which was also the bank. The postmaster got shot, & the bandits took off. Within a few minutes the sheriff & a couple of deputies rode off after them & soon returned with them. They held a short trial on the street in view of the whole towns population, kids & all. They were hung--right then & there. I don't think my Dad ever stole a piece of bread.
Bill